To me, this was one of the beautiful God moves about the entire situation. How does our elder board navigate things differently with that Pastor? And you mentioned to me that there were some stop signs along the way. So many people are looking the other way. To us, he was Stu, Dad and Poppa and we already miss him achingly." Posted by Jonathan Deatherage on Apr 02, 2019. I dont agree with a lot of his views, but he said something and it is true, we need to have, you know, church leader needs to have two voices, one for gathering the sheep and one for scaring away wolves. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. I think its incredibly dangerous. So grateful for those who did and Scot McKnight who came out with a just a powerful, I remember when his blog hit and he said, Every elder has to resign. And within what, wasnt it a week, all of them resigned. And I remember you saying once that you had gotten a manual, I think it was from the ECFA, and boy, we could talk about them. That was my upbringing. and I found these people in those imperfect churches! Judson is located just 36 miles outside Chicago on a beautiful 90 acre campus. But then its my understanding too, that when these women met with the elders, the level of bullying and abuse that they were subjected to, was such that I know Vonda told me there were elders in tears at the end of this, of how pervasive the abuse was, I dont know how specific you can be but can you give people an idea of, of what actually happened to these women that were abused? I just want to say this was not someone who acted on any behavior at our church, but had someone who was in the process of grooming someone else. Its scripturally rooted. Many organizations that have a board of directors consisting of yes men or yes women who are inclined to go along with the board chairman and/or are friends with them. I think that he lost that. So Im guessing youre not against lawyers being on board. Literally thousands of people have come to know Jesus under Bill Hybels teaching and yet, he was morally bankrupt at the same time. Youre absolutely right. Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 "of natural causes unexpectedly" according to a tweet from his son, Pete Briscoe. In context, I think my meaning becomes clear as I say soon after, agreeing with Mitchs assessment that unanimity is bad: Absolutely horrible. But so far, I havent seen that. But it was after a period of I dont know the details, and I dont know how much youre at liberty to say them, but its my understanding he went away for a period of time to kind of reflect and assess how he was doing and how he was handling things. And its so important, I think, for any of us who are doing any kind of ministry at all, if we get our identity wrapped up in what were doing, then what were doing is no longer ministry, its no longer service to the Lord. I think one of the ways that Willow tried to reckon with the situation was to permit Bill Hybels to retire from his role at the church. I am with you in this sad place of justified disappointment in the church. How do we deal with claims of sexual abuse? But we dont have time on this podcast. In fact, back in the late 80s, early 90s, we went to Willow Creek and we had a wonderful experience. It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. Not so much at Willow till after, because I was so wrapped up in the Harvest stuff at that time and the Moody stuff that I didnt really have the capability or the bandwidth to do much reporting about Willow. But lets talk about since were talking about the media, Willow Creek had unbelievable resources at its disposal, right. I know that the original elders of Harvest thought they could keep James accountable despite the knowledge that he had glaring character flaws from the beginning. Would you consider making a tax-deductible donation to help our journalists continue to report the truth and restore the church? At least, thats how I saw it. I mean, I Timothy 5:20 says that we should publicly expose elders who are sinning so that others may take warning. And I do think theres a spiritual stronghold, I hope and pray that it will be broken in our area. I was a member of WCCC for many years. Growing up in a ministry family, Pete watched and learned from his parents and witnessed the reach and power of Telling the Truth 's media outreach. Many more than even Vonda Dyer knew. I think thats dangerous. Let me give you some examples. Telling another woman, how she looks in a dress and how it accentuates her body, everything up to an alleged affair, to Pat Baronowski, Bill Hybels longtime assistant, stating in the New York Times said Bill Hybels made her obtain pornography and they watched it together. They were almost sacred and benevolent and unable to do wrong. And theres an element to which a church like Willow Creek was a global church, right? And so, you know, as a lawyer on the board, youre not absolved from the obligation of complying with the mandates of Scripture. Do we have a theology of goodness at our church? Like if you go back and you actually read his books line-on-line, there are some things in there in those books where you go, For a pastor, that should be unacceptable. But he was attenuating his church culture and culture at large to him in his behavior. And this is one of the I think exciting things. We were talking a little bit about the elder board. The news of Petes resignation landed heavy on my heart. I would love to see Chicago experience revival. So since youve seen a lot of this kind of up close and personal through talking to witnesses and elders and staff people, how bad was the abuse at Willow Creek? I think there were a few major events. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about in you mentioned this in earlier discussion we had about the identity of elders and how so often, and I dont think its just elders, I think its a lot of the senior pastor leadership and staff that their identity tends to become enmeshed with the success or failure of the organization theyre a part of. And its not something you can control like traditional mainstream media. But now my faith in the whole institution is shattered. And I realized that as we were discussing this, that there might be some people who have heard about what happened at Willow Creek, but somewhat superficially, through the headlines and dont really know beneath the surface. The small tape recording process drew the attention of many people who were eager for a copy of the teaching they heard at church to share with friends and neighbors. WebHi friend, I'm Pete Briscoe. And Willow lost the battle of PR on social media. On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie explores these important questions with Mitch Little, whos not just an attorney for victims. So your pastor, he chose himself to step down, correct? I cant do this authentically anymore. And as hard as the last year and a half has been, I applaud him for that. It is what manifests. My personal belief, not speaking on behalf of anyone else, my personal belief is that that structure is designed to fail, because elders cant elder in that structure. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how we can find deeper fulfillment in our work and lives. I am thrilled to be here. Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Part II, Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches, Part 2, https://world.wng.org/sites/default/files/issues/pdf/world_sep012018.pdf, https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. How do you recommend searching worth while places to donate too? Mitch is an attorney, a church elder and an advocate for abuse victims. Its my understanding that was a watershed moment. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. The Journal Sentinel reported: Elmbrook resignations are the latest to rock evangelical Christian churches. And Harvest was the same thing. And wasnt there something with Bill Clinton coming to the church and speaking? It is simply to feed ourselves. And to do that, we must avoid falling into the trap of our Christian beliefs being pitted against culture in the public sphere of debate. You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. You know, I believe in spiritual strongholds and things like that. I will let you know as soon as I figure it all out. And my understanding was the elder board set some boundaries for Clinton to be able to come and speak. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. And so when you see behaviors that look like grooming, you know, John Calvin, Im not a Calvinist. What I need most is what I dont have. I was the senior pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship for nearly 30 years. Guest Bios Show Transcript Spiritual abuse has become an increasingly hot topic, as more and more stories of bully pastors and hyper-controlling, Guest Bios Show Transcript After years spent in an abusive church, how do you heal? Below is a link to a PDF of the article World Magazine did on a sex abuse scandal involving VOM. About Stuart and Jill Briscoe WebSince that time he has ministered on every continent, written more than 40 books, pastored a church for 30 years, and founded a media ministry called Telling the Truth which now broadcasts daily worldwide. A man who "dedicated his life to sharing Gods Word with the world" has died at the age of 91. What I saw happen at Willow is, the board as a unit was willing to dissemble in the amount necessary to preserve the organization. I think one of the things that happens in churches, from a deformed leadership standpoint, is requiring boards to operate in unanimity or using unity as a cudgel against people who have firm convictions about things. But I guess this is the question so many are asking is, Can anybody be in those kind of jobs with the kind of responsibility that is put on one human, one person to lead thousands of people? And so many looking to him for vision for leadership for everything. And if youd like to find me online, just go to JulieRoys.com. Vonda was at one time the director of Willow Creeks vocal ministry, and she was one of the first women to come forward and speak publicly about Bill Hybels alleged sexual misconduct. Multiple services, being able to do it on cue, proves Hybels theatrical abilitiesI look back and feel sick, given all the details we now know from behind the scenes. I have plenty of authentic friends just not at church. https://world.wng.org/sites/default/files/issues/pdf/world_sep012018.pdf, Also, Id encourage you to read the website below. He was like one of these, I think until Scot decided to speak up, it was, Willow had credulity to say, These are people outside our tribe who are criticizing us. I heard an elder once describe his role as a glorified sanitation engineer. Can you imagine how many books that sold her? In the early 2000s, as Stuart and Jill transitioned into minister-at-large roles and spent more time traveling to serve the global church, an additional voice was added in order to bless the supporters ofTelling the Truth. Can I talk about Scot McKnight for a second? Well, again, Joining me today is Mitch Little a partner with Scheef & Stone in Frisco, Texas. So you can go to Amazon and enter in Boz Tchividjian and his book will pop up but you need to know what youre looking for because people who are sexual predators, they have an acuity for blending into society in ways that they dont stand out like this is not like, you know, the sexual predator in your church is not some, you know, grease ball sitting outside your kids ministry just kind of looking for a way to get at, like, thats our common image of what a sexual predator is. I Briscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. Yep, thats rooted in pride. Like they didnt read a book, figuring out how to do it, but there are warning signs that people need to be aware of. We are egalitarian and sophisticated, and we are Gods chosen church to show how ministry is supposed to be done. And we need to start on the work of reconciliation and repentance now. And you have two or three board members who go, I dont think so, they did nothing. Im so glad that theyre godly men like you serving. And thats one of the things that I just come back to is that the word hypocrisy in the Greek the word that comes from that means actor. I was just following following lawyers advice. So its okay. And another womans situation, theyre in an elder board meeting, and Bill Hybels, you know, has his hand on a womans leg, and no one else can see. Briscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. That way, youll never miss an episode. Or what is the church think about Calvinism? something along those lines. I was kind of thrust into the middle of it out of love for wanting to help my friends and man, that thing escalated pretty quickly. "For many of you, he was preacher, pastor, mentor or friend. When the when the mans lying on the side of the road, naked and bleeding, theyre the priests who cross the street. Friends are important! Well, to answer your question, very bad. Great! Those are the good guys. And the people in this story are complex characters. Its M-I-L-G-R-A-M the Milgram experiment, but basically American researchers were trying to figure out after World War II, why so many in German society were willing to go along with the Nazis or go along with their leadership, do incalculably horrible things to people. Yes, probably a number of your listeners are aware of the situation where the Ortbergs and Mellados had tried to report to the board an alleged long term affair that Bill Hybels was engaged in and the church hired an outside investigator to investigate the situation. Thats one of the things that attracted me to it is that he would admit something that he had failed, like, I remember one Wednesday night at a midweek service, and he got up and he said how that day he had seen somebody who was, you know, he could tell that they were upset and in need, and he just walked right by the person and totally blew them off. Jill and Stuart came to the States from England. But theres a sense that the Church of Jesus Christ Universal is represented all throughout not just the United States but the world. However, whenever he would do that quavering voice, etc., I would wonder how he could do that for all three identical services? It grows on the vanilla orchid, and it only grows in really exotic places like Tahiti, and there are some places in Mexico it grows too, but what is unique about the vanilla orchid is when it blooms, its got to be pollinated within one day. Thank you so much. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? Im still waiting for the apology for the public apology for giving. The thing that is so terrifying is that someone who has been a senior pastor in an organization like that is not beyond it. Pete has offered to The vanilla bean is incredibly hard to harvest. People can do the job of preaching and leading a church for, you know, 40 plus weeks in the pulpit at a church of this size. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? I think that they were scared of what Ill call the Christian Industrial Complex that had risen up around Bill, the economic consequences of speaking out on a topic of high consequence. Theyre not holding anybody accountable then. I mean, its an accurate criticism of people within the church. The news of Petes resignation landed heavy on my heart. Ive even friended a few. Pete is the son of Jill and Stuart Briscoe. But this is the beauty of I think whats arisen is an independent media. If you have six members of the Board of eight, lets just say its eight or 10. Pete Briscoe was Senior Pastor of Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, TX for nearly 30 years. He now coaches Pete Briscoe | Brookfield WI. WebLearn More About Pete Today - Pete Briscoe God loves you to distraction, There is nothing you can do to make Him love them more or less, And, that Life with this Lover God is rich beyond description, regardless of your performance. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. In fact, I know some of them. Amen. Its not okay. (etc. Subscribe Sign up for my daily email devotionals and to stay in touch! Why didnt others support them? The church said in essence, Tsk, tsk. If you go back and you look at Bill Hybels books in retrospect, Im amazed at some of the things that are contained in his books that people became okay with. If anything has a whiff of impropriety, we would jump on it immediately. And yet here we see a church thats ostensibly about serving God, and its about proclaiming the gospel and yet this is happening within the church. I think these women would still like to know the answer to that. The Elder Board has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. But theres something wrong in the whole business of Church. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. That nonprofit corporation and its bank accounts, thats not what the biblical church is. Is that right? I mean, I cant tell you how many stories I heard just like the one that you told the people who said, Well, I was at a conference with Bill Hybels, and he was awful to me. It should be something that he learned from, right? Thats a bad default state. So a young person in our high school ministry. https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. I think he lost it. So to some extent, we all have a measure of hypocrisy. How do spot a safe pastorand can. WebIt is with heavy hearts that the Elders of Bent Tree announce that Pete Briscoe has submitted his resignation as Senior Pastor. He said, Pete, you should have one lawyer on your board but not more than one. And I believe that there is some really sound wisdom in that. Interestingly enough, during the interview, he seemed extremely angry and resentful. 1 talking about this. Well, since you brought it up, youre gonna youre gonna have to address the Vanilla Bean. Also, major problems. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. God uses the weak things of this world to confound the strong, right? How did that all happen? It was a huge fixture in evangelicalism. I think the larger the platform, the more rigorous the accountability needs to be. The more rigorous the accountability needs to be a place where people agree. His role as a glorified sanitation engineer the answer to that and culture at large to him in his.... Offered to the States from England landed heavy on my heart waiting for public. And so many looking to him in his behavior come and speak disappointment the. You serving like traditional mainstream media do we deal with claims of abuse! Journalists continue to report the Truth and restore the church in which Pete Briscoe my! Read about them at their website teaching the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe a. Share a few things as we navigate this loss together attorney for victims independent.. 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