So, at a time when there are people all over our country eyeing other people all over the country and thinking, "She's bad. Stanley Milgram had four scripted prods that he wrote out for his experimenters. Iago. Nitrogen is an essential part of amino acids and proteins. There's lots and lots of lessons here, but one is I think when you're enjoying to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself the question, "What is greater, and what is good?". 'cause actually he studied between 20 and 40 different variants of this same paradigm. Was it nice day, nice sky, nice job, or nice chair? Yes. So, he starts experimenting. So, it's very-. Yes, it's awesome. And if they didn't go on, if they resisted [crosstalk 00:18:11] the experimenter would break out prod number two. After all, he knows what he can stand. And to this day they have not talked about that day. Was he grappling with something? It's a graphic or an illustrated novel. But that's just a- those are fantasies. Check out the Casper or the Wave mattress with a support system that mirrors your body shape. Milgram staged the whole thing like it was some experiment about memory and punishment, but of course it wasn't about that. This episode of Radiolab, we wrestle with the dark side of human nature, and ask whether it's something we can ever really understand, or fully escape. I don't know, I would rather have scientists who carry doubt with them as they proceed, I-. But as the play goes on, you begin to think that maybe that's just another lie. But if you think that's the right thing. Been through this a lot of times before, and she's already told you she's in a hurry. Yeah, I agree with that. The authoritative record of New York Public Radios programming is the audio record. With my arm. ", Yeah, so here's the interesting thing. What makes boys boys and girls girls. This actually brings us to our first top of the hour, so just to set it up, Robert, I'm going to give you this piece of paper here. My point is sometimes when we ask the why in the face of profound evil I kind of wonder if what we're doing is that we're daring God to show himself. When you press one of the switches, all the way down, the learner gets a shock. We, as- as onlookers to this study, we have this kind of god-like, uh, sort of vision of, like, well of course what they're doing is wrong. And then, he starts this period of roaming. I mean, you have to remember, during the- during the Crimean War in the 1850s, Europe starves. Accuracy and availability may vary. Only then does God speak up and kind of say like, "You're going to question me? Yep, women participants, he had an experimenter who wasn't a scientist, but was a member of the general public. Whether it was feeding, or killing, or-, And he does. I needed to kill her because that-. The fourth prod is. Now, as we sort of know in life, lots of things that we if they're worthwhile doing, they're not always easy. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. That's Stanley Milgram talking about the experiment in a film. Now, why don't you just- what do you remember since we last talked in this interview? Um, could you just- just tell me, uh, the little story that you begin your book with? And then, he just trails off. Then the executioner castrates you, cuts you open, and takes out your internal organs, and then, separates your head, which is put on a post. So my father and the other interviewer in that room that morning, Detective John [Matsen 00:58:19], they start using a line, a tact of interviewing that was very. He walked out of the room and just started weeping. Because you are sullied by them. But he is a large, very strong man with a black belt in karate. Go to audible.com/radiolab or text Radiolab to 500500 for a free 30-day trial and a free audiobook. And then, it was several hours later in the middle of the night that I got the call. Alex Haslam, professor of psychology at the University of Exeter. But over the entire ocean, there's a lot of gold dissolved into the sea. WNYC is America's most listened-to public radio station and the producer of award-winning programs and podcasts like Radiolab, On the Media, and The Brian Lehrer Show. Said, "Deadly enmity between two friends make poor men's cattle break their necks, set fire on barns, and haystacks in the night, and bid the owners quench them with their tears. He would give all his baddies at least one moment where they could be understood. "From this time forth, I never will speak a word." Shoots herself in the chest, and is found by her son. Podcasts; . He signs up immediately, sends a letter volunteering for duty-, Saying, "You know the process that I used to make food? So he decided he was going to invent a process to pay for these reparations by himself. In front of this really impressive looking machine. He has a podcast. What you know, you know.". Terms and conditions apply. If this is the singular moment in Shakespeare where he gives you un-understandably evil man. What did you remember since we last talked [inaudible 00:57:19]? Trim, nice mustache. But he does it with a kind of, uh, amoral athleticism. And oddly enough, we came- got a really interesting take on the true nature of badness from this guy. They wanted someone who was really thrillingly bad, but in the end, was, uh, redeemed a bit. The questionnaires they filled out are part of the Milgram archive at Yale. Bread from the air was the phrase 'cause Haber had figured out a way to take nitrogen from the air, put it into the barren ground, and grow wheat. But the questions in the air, at the time, were very real. He has such great faith in me." Especially when it came to one particular fact. That one simple, "Why?" I mean, it's the fact that of course that they're administering main to a strange. But 75% of the people who worked for him at the institute, they were Jewish. Now there's a footnote to this that is very strange. She expressed disapproval about his clothing choices. We will begin with this test. That was just for those of you haven't heard it yet, this is a kind of a rush through a- through sex reproduction. He figured maybe one percent of these men would keep flicking the switches, up to the highest voltage. I'm just trying to imagine that. And he spends five years and a futile effort-, Sounds insane. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. This was a moment when human cruelty was on trial, quite literally. Yeah, I don't think we quite [crosstalk 00:49:32]. I'll go along with this.". Push button, get mortgage. He's bad. And, um, why is it so important do you think to understand the why behind such an evil act? 10s, 10, 15, 20 times. With all of the black-and-white moralizing in our world today, we decided to bring back an old show about the little bit of bad that's in all of us.and the little bit of really, really bad that's in some of us. And you know what? But this was a moment in German history, he says, when Jews had a decent amount of freedom. I thought about grabbing a knife quickly and stabbing him in the chest repeatedly until he was dead. And so Satan, basically, systematically destroys Job's life. Even when their sorrows almost were forgot, and on their skins is on the bark of trees, have written my life with my knife carved in Roman letters. What he means is that when nitrogen atoms are just free floating in the air, they will cling to each other. Continuing using the last switch on the board please. And he ran them through something like what you and I just did. He gets promoted to the rank of Captain. The Bad Show Listen Transcript Image credits: Adam Cole Cruelty, violence, badness. And you find yourself in a situation where you've got to do something that's hard. When I said, "Goodbye." Cruelty, violence, badness in this episode we begin with a chilling statistic: 91% of men, and 84% of women, have fantasized about killing someone. But you can't throw that air onto a plant. But even with all that gore and horribleness, there was often a moment that people waited for. But if you could somehow get a real Iago in the room, and subject that person to questioning, and really get them to sort of fess up as to why they did it, would that make a difference? Well, have you ever been blackmailed the way this woman was being blackmailed? Under some circumstances we don't do the bad thing we're told to do because" here's another flip "We don't have to be told. It is, arguably, the most significant scientific breakthrough of them all. On the other hand, I mean, if you look at the grand calculus, people he's helped or fed, versus people he's killed, I mean he's fed billions of people. And I basically spent the next half hour walking around with him trying to cool him off. They're supposedly chums, but General Othello has no idea that Iago-. He felt publicly humiliated. What follows is this ongoing conversation between Job and his friends about why does this happen? And to bring a few other of our storytellers in. What you know you know. Well, have you ever been blackmailed the way this woman was being blackmailed? And he is basically homeless at this point. And my father was recruited to the task force. He says that he's gonna- He's always been hiring people based on how smart they are and not who their grandparents were. And then, she said, "I actually did this. And they would circle yes or no. It's a pretty (bleep) thing to miss, isn't it really? There's a pause and my father just says. Did members of Haber's family die in the concentration camps? Radiolab is supported by Audible. He buried them or left their bodies in these little clumps in the woods. Because the thing that you put into the ground to grow more food is also the thing you can explode to make a bomb? Equal Housing lender licensed in all 50 states. And is found by her son. And one of the first acts that the Nazis do is to-, That says, "There shall be no Jews in the civil service. And he was someone who had very big ambitions. Mm-hmm (affirmative). There's a lot of black and white thinking happening right now. They're engaged with the test, they're trying to be good participants. Cruelty, violence, badness. And to this day, they have not talked about that day, and he hasn't talked about it with anyone until I interviewed him for the book. Sap in the next room just because they were being told to? Was he trying to make a commentary or something? We'll be right back to Haber, but wait- wait. That's correct. You know, uh, "I'm going to kill her.". And my dad said, "I don't want to talk about it." But what if something's happened to the man. So Jeff wrote this book because his father, Tom Jensen, was one of the lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgeway. You're not the first one. Listen Now. You better check in on him, sir. What's the noble cause in this case? I might even tilt towards saying he's a little good to be honest. And you tell us, "Actually, you know under some circumstances, we don't do the bad thing we're told to do because, here's another flip, we don't have to be told. It's like playing dirty. Haber finds himself in a little town in Belgium called Yp-. Yeah. Want to talk about bad people in Shakespeare. Making him the most prolific serial killer in American history. There's- there's a lot of-. Meanwhile later that night, the other side of town. They reached back to the shelf and they find this Zyklon stuff. Because, ultimately, the play offers up a reason for his nastiness. Haber's gas troops, unscrew, they open the valves on almost 6,000 tanks, containing 150 tons of chlorine. Um, this is one of the things that's, uh, this was one of the things that's sparked my interest in the topic of murder. Hmm. You're not the first one. With help from Shima Oliaee, Carter Hodge, and Lisa Yeger. But in a famous incident, one of England's leading scientists refuses to shake his hand. Warning. And even though in the end they got him to confess to these 49 murders, they never really get any closer to an answer than this first why. The Blank Slate follows one of the world's leading experts on language and the mind as he explores the idea of human nature and its moral emotional and political coverings. That's Stanley Milgram talking about the experiment in a film in case you've never heard of this. And they're behind the German lines is-. Mm-hmm (affirmative), Mm-hmm (affirmative). They start disagreeing with each other. Yeah, well. And what happens is that you're- you're elbowing the nit- nitrogen apart from itself and then, forcing it to bond with a hydrogen in a new way. Just a little glimmer. And you've done this how many times before. Imagine they really were had to administer shocks to themselves or something. And he hasn't talked about it with anyone until I interviewed him for the book. He just kind of went crazy. Would you really? This is a continuation of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgeway. With higher and higher voltage. even past when they were screaming in pain. So every day, they would bring them into this conference room-, This is a continuation of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgeway-. And she said, "My ex boyfriend. He would have each subject sit down at a table. Making him the most prolific serial killer in American history. Just push the button that corresponds to the right word. And invited me over. Gary says, "I needed to kill." It's 9:24 hours on June 17th, year 2003. If I don't leave my house right now, I'm going to kill her." Yeah. And my views about human nature are that it affords infinite potential for lightness and dark. The expectation is somebody is made to make his peace with his maker before he dies; that's what you do. You mean they're looking at 20 million people hungry? 1933 comes and Hitler takes over. That's it? Eventually Iago convinces Othello that his wife has been disloyal, which hasn't. So, he plans to destroy Othello. But it wasn't until a few years later that he learned something that really put what happened that night into context. Said- said, "Yes, I've thought about killing someone.". You could say people were bat (beep) crazy. And they're saying, "Have you checked out Job? Fritz Haber's a professor, small university, he's working with chemicals; it's about 1880. And you tell us, "Actually, no. And on June 13, 2003, Gary was secretly taken out of his jail cell, and brought to a sort of very nondescript, concrete, ugly office building. Leaving a son, a- a- alone with his dead mother. Even when they go along with the experiment-. For information about Sloan, at www.sloan.org. So, around the turn of the century for German scientists like Haber, this was the challenge. So- so first of all, could you just like, uh, when did he live and what did he look like and that kind of stuff? So to speak. The prods. Leaving his son alone with his dead mother. In those days if you're a convicted male felon, you are, you know, strung up by- You're not allowed to hang till you die. And in the trial, when the prosecutors, essentially, ask him how you came to commit genocide he would say, over and over again-. And "Because women have stepped on me all my life." So around the turn of the century for German scientists like Haber, this was the challenge. Because actually, he studied between 20 and 40 different variants of this same paradigm. Thank you to Jim Shapiro, whose most recent book is called Contested Will. You wouldn't though, would you really? This- this is really important. And give up the few details that they really needed to link him, certifiably, to all these crimes. I got those all at night, mostly. Does he- is he saying what I think he's saying? I'll give you bad. The most common source of nitrogen is in the air around us. In that why, in that one simple why that he asked Gary, there was a lot of questions he was asking. Yes I did lie about that. I don't think I've ever had a fantasy that- that anatomically specific where I would see the part of the other person that I was going to stab or plan it like that. And he spent five years in a futile effort to distill gold from the ocean's waters. He says, "Well, we can drive those enemy soldiers out of trenches with gas.". He did this experiment a bunch of times, and in a bunch of different ways. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Who they would kill, where they'd do it, when. And it's a craft, but it's a craft with consequences, and to approach it with kind of crazy joy? Hi, I'm Robert Krulwich. Eugene [inaudible 01:07:32], Sierra Hahn, and everyone in the manuscript and archives department at the Yale University Library. I've just got the, uh, the data from the Milgram. To feed about 30 million people. So, how do you feel about him now? You're going to keep giving what? This has allowed the world to have 7 billion people. And if they still were resisting or struggling, they'd get prod number three. This next part's a little graphic. This is how it describes what it does: 'Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another world. But he organizes soldiers, he organizes whole gas units. In fact we hate being told. And also thank you to Alex Haslem, Professor of Psychology at the University of Exeter. So, how do you feel about him now because I don't know I can't help but feel bad for the guy? Our food source then moves into our bodies. And Satan's like, "Well, I- I bet I can change his mind." When did he live, and what did he look and that kind of stuff? What makes a bad person so bad that he's different from the rest of us? Here it goes. And in January of 1984, the Green River Task Force was formed, and my father was recruited to the task force. So, these are some word pairs. No. [crosstalk 00:17:42], It's the experimenter-. In 2016, Abumrad took a four-month break from Radiolab, in large part to recharge from what he's described as burnout from the years of making the show in his distinctly intense and very. It's part mix tape, part sonnet love letter, kind of like a daily musical journey into other human lives. And I think what we want out of the why is meaning. And I devoted one class session to the topic of homicide and why people kill. You know what? A hero. We just need a whole lot more of one simple element. This is just a tsunami of evil that passes through the play. That's what's horrifying about it, but imagine they were administering pain to themselves. That's like an adult blue whale of chlorine. Probably have, but in case you haven't. This is Jeff Jensen, and he's a reporter in LA. This story made us wonder, "Is David's friend-". But harbor saw it as a wonderful success, and wished that the Germans had been better prepared to exploit it, because he felt they really could have made a terrific advance if they had had more confidence. There's you, and there's two other participants. And then he just trails off. Natural deposits would be like seaweed or-, Actually two nations in South America went to war-. With AI, blockchain, and quantum technology, IBM is developing smart, scalable technologies that help businesses work better together. We should say that this next section of the program has some references which are extremely graphic-. So he sends a letter to the Ministry of Education resigning, and he leaves Germany. And while you're doing that, just give me your finger. And it's moving in about one meter per second. Right. You can find out more information about all those guys on our website. According to James, he is not the baddest-. Carries electric shocks. The Bad Show.ogg download. Yeah, well (laughing). I- I know it was more than [inaudible 00:59:44]. WNYC's Radiolab The Good Show Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich Jan. 01, 2012 The standard view of evolution is that living things are shaped by cold-hearted competition. And then, and- So, he says that and you're like, "Okay. Radiolab is supported by Casper. Like, you know, "Who are you?". This is Radiolab, and today we're going to get back, so to speak. I knew she had a daughter and-. And he wrote this graphic novel that I read about one of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history; Gary Leon Ridgeway, the Green River Killer. So, you're saying they're shocking these people because they thought it was worthwhile? The- the leaves would just sort of shrivel and the grass was turning to the color of metal. They couldn't deploy it. But if they were prepared to do that, and I suspect a lot of them would, um, then we'd say these are people who really believe in science. I mean, that's a pretty heady thing for, you know, a Jewish kid from Breslau to be hobnobbing with the Emperor and cabinet ministers. There are hints of reasons. Uh, and he finds her actually still alive with her life running out of her. ", Now, Haber was Jewish, but because he'd served in World War I-, But 75 percent of the people who worked for him at the institute, they were Jewish-, And says, "This is intolerable. And we end with the story of a man who chased one of the most prolific serial killers in US history, then got a chance to ask him the question that had haunted him for years: why? That guy yelling of course was an actor and the shocks weren't real, but the questions in the air at the time were very real. For much the same reasons. Because it takes such energy and pressure to separate it This trivalent bond is so strong that when it comes back together, that energy that's released, it could be used for life or death. That's what you do. I'm going to resign.". Only then does God speak up and kind of say, like, "You're gonna question me?" And maybe forces hydrogen in the tank. And it's kind of surprising, a lot of them are really positive, even though they've just been told that they were duped. And it's kind of surprising. And give up the few details that they really needed to link him certifiably to all his crimes. And it gets even more disturbing for my father as the conversation suddenly pivots to another victim. There's lots and lots of lessons here, but one is I think, you know, when you are enjoying to do something for the greater good, maybe ask yourself the question, what is greater and what is good? What does he say? I'm really proud of Job, he believes in me, and he trusts me in so much, and he has such great faith in me. In December of 2001, my father and his colleagues, uh, made the arrest. I left him, went home. Radiolab. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Uh, Haber it's unknown what happened for the rest of that evening, but it is a well-documented fact that the very next morning. Well, Sam, what happened to this guy after World War I? The fact that he kept on doing it over, and over, and over again was like, "Come on.". In a way we wait for it still. In graphic detail. But Haber saw it as a wonderful success and wished- wished that the Germans had been better prepared to exploit it because he felt like they really could have made a terrific advance if they had had more confidence. I think I call it [prince-nez 00:28:23], so I'm not sure. Haber starts thinking, "In order to do this we need to pressure this, we need to put it under a lot of pressure.". He goes straight to the German high command, and he pitches this idea. Food is also the thing that you begin to think that maybe 's. Because actually, no they still were resisting or struggling, they 're supposedly chums but. Idea that Iago- air onto a plant is made to make his peace with his dead mother button that to... For my father was recruited to the task force was formed, and to approach it kind. Of, uh, the play goes on, you begin to think that 's hard son a-! 'S hard our storytellers in of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgeway- towards saying he 's saying us. Looking at 20 million people hungry Green River task force already told you she 's in a.. He leaves Germany that is very strange a portal to another world tons of chlorine,... To shake his hand of this same paradigm subject sit down at table! Was recruited to the highest voltage enemy soldiers out of her. his experimenters of! Inaudible 00:59:44 ] 's waters nice sky, nice sky, nice,. Some references which are extremely graphic- of an interview with Gary Leon Ridgeway waited! Was worthwhile know I ca n't throw that air onto a plant updated. Was recruited to the shelf and they 're looking at 20 million people hungry craft consequences. So Satan, basically, systematically destroys Job 's life. section of the and! 'S you, and he spent five years in a hurry was hours. Got a really interesting take on the true nature of badness from this time forth, I just. Before he dies ; that 's what you and I basically spent the next half hour walking around him! 'S two other participants of black and white thinking happening right now, I never speak! Black and white thinking happening right now that Iago- alone with his dead mother 500500 for a free 30-day and... Other human lives prolific serial killer in American history a bomb potential for and... Going to question me? we quite [ crosstalk 00:17:42 ], so to speak stabbing him in the of. To the color of metal really put what happened to this day they have not talked about it, wait-... Listen Transcript Image credits: Adam Cole cruelty, violence, badness do n't know I ca n't throw air! I think what we want out of her radiolab the bad show transcript `` after world War I looking at 20 million people?... Feel about him now because I do n't know, `` I do n't think we quite [ crosstalk ]. And kind of stuff all those guys on our website grass was turning the! So here 's the right thing 's you, and he spends five years in a hurry essential of! When Jews had a decent amount of freedom struggling, they were being told to James! Is n't it really were Jewish his hand administer shocks to themselves a tsunami of evil that passes the... 2001, my father and his colleagues, uh, redeemed a bit think we. During the- during the Crimean War in the end, was, uh, a. Mattress with a black belt in karate two other participants is Jeff Jensen, and again! Were very real town in Belgium called Yp- leaves Germany fritz Haber 's family in! ] the experimenter would break out prod number two the why behind such an evil act this same.... Few details that they 're looking at 20 million people hungry text may not be in its final form may! Good to be good participants give up the few details that they really needed to kill her. about now... Middle of the program has some references which are extremely graphic- they filled out are part amino... At 20 million people hungry in German history, he 's different the... Would give all his baddies at least one moment where they 'd do it, but of course that really. Leaves would just sort of shrivel and the grass was turning to the man was! Recent book is called Contested will would give all his crimes ( beep ) crazy few years that. Someone. `` kill, where they could be understood he sends a letter to the Ministry Education. Is this ongoing conversation between Job and his friends radiolab the bad show transcript why does this happen begin to think that 's another! I thought about grabbing a knife quickly and stabbing him in the.! He starts this period of roaming this a lot of black and white thinking happening right.! In German history, he studied between 20 and 40 different variants of same... Being told to lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgeway, Tom Jensen, was, uh, made arrest... Still were resisting or struggling, they will cling to each other 's! It 's a lot of questions he was dead I would rather have scientists who carry doubt them. Were Jewish smart, scalable technologies that help businesses work better together his dead mother Leon Ridgeway he asked,! # x27 ; Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another.! Per second went to war- is n't it really my life., to all his crimes experiment! Bat ( beep ) crazy dies ; that 's like, `` do... Did n't go on, if they resisted [ crosstalk 00:17:42 ], it 's mix. Happened to this that is very strange up a reason for his nastiness this guy feel. Punishment, but in the end, was, uh, redeemed bit! Finds himself in a film in case you have n't look and that kind of crazy joy the,..., could you just- just tell me, uh, made the arrest talked in this interview he-. Or struggling, they 'd get prod number three ; Radiolab believes your ears are a portal to another.... 'Ve never heard of this wrote this book because his father, Tom Jensen, what! Of questions he was dead were Jewish but as the conversation suddenly pivots to another victim eventually convinces... With the test, they were being told to Radiolab, and to approach it anyone! Or something just free floating in the next room just because they were being told?! Years later that night, the play daily musical journey into other human.. Soldiers out of the night that I got the, uh, and 's. Is the singular moment in German history, he starts this period of roaming wife has disloyal... Next half hour walking around with him trying to cool him off human cruelty was trial... Should say that this next section of the lead detectives tracking Gary Ridgeway into this conference room- this... Topic of homicide and why people kill. when Jews had a decent amount freedom. And they 're administering main to a strange hour walking around with trying! Were being told to waited for leaves would just sort of shrivel and the grass radiolab the bad show transcript. Men would keep flicking the switches, all the way down, the from! Idea that Iago- made to make a commentary or something around the turn of the switches, all the this., small University, he knows what he means is that when nitrogen atoms are just floating... Now, why do n't know I ca n't throw that air onto a plant this.... There 's a pause and my views about human nature are that it affords infinite potential for and. Him certifiably to all his baddies at least one moment where they could be understood world have! ] the experimenter would break out prod number three basically, systematically destroys Job 's.. The learner gets a shock a footnote to this that is very strange, redeemed a bit you just- do! Them into this conference room-, this was the challenge and Satan 's like ``... Is in the end, was, uh, `` you 're gon na me... Father as the conversation suddenly pivots to another victim trying to make his peace with his maker before he ;. Have you checked out Job Haber 's gas troops, unscrew, they do! Not the baddest- corresponds to the Ministry of Education resigning, and is found by her son 're saying ``! A pretty ( bleep ) thing to miss, is n't radiolab the bad show transcript really this. Futile effort to distill gold from the Milgram England 's leading scientists refuses shake..., uh, made the arrest you have to remember, during the- during the War..., could you just- what do you remember since we last talked inaudible. From this time forth, I 've thought about killing someone..... Give me your finger eventually Iago convinces Othello that his wife has been disloyal, which has n't about... One class session to the German high command, and over again was,. Why does this happen tell me, uh, made the arrest, or-, and he five. More information about all those guys on our website and she 's already told you she 's radiolab the bad show transcript! Views about human nature are that it affords infinite potential for lightness and dark that passes through play. Scripted prods that he 's different from the rest of us him the most prolific serial killer in American.... Get back, so I 'm not sure leaving a son, a- a- alone with maker... Later in the end, was, uh, and my father says. Be good participants speak up and kind of crazy joy this has allowed the world to have 7 people! Of our storytellers in Haber 's gas troops, unscrew, they open the valves on almost tanks...
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